"Multiculturalism is bound to fail"

Interview with Simon Webb (historian).

Image generated with AI.

Simon Webb is a historian and writer who runs the popular YouTube channel History Debunked and writes on Substack. I first stumbled across his work on YouTube some years ago and personally enjoy the short clips that dive straight into pressing topics without hesitation. Simon’s historical knowledge helps put the oftentimes confusing contemporary trends into perspective.

A fun fact is that he is also making quite a splash outside the echo chamber: there are no fewer than 12 YouTube channels dedicated to debunking History Debunked, more often through personal attacks than reasoned arguments.

Simon lived abroad for many years, traveled extensively, and wrote for magazines during that time. This led to a contract to write a book on the history of London in Prehistoric London: The Capital Before the Romans, after which his writing career took off. He focuses particularly on topics like London, the slave trade, terrorism, and Irish and Middle Eastern conflicts — subjects drawn from his direct experiences on the fringes of these events. In addition, he has written fiction, with 70 or 80 Western novels published under pseudonyms (what he calls “pulp fiction”) for financial reasons.

I contacted Simon because I wanted to interview him about nationhood, democracy, and the political situations in Sweden compared to the UK. Here is the resulting interview.

Free speech and controversy

I asked Simon what drives him to constantly wade into controversial territory. “I’ve always had a big mouth, and now that I’m an old man, I care even less what people think of me.” He wants people to be allowed to speak their minds and says it doesn’t bother him if some may think that he’s an ”idiot”, simply admitting that “I could be wrong.”

We agreed that free speech is crucial and that attracting controversy shouldn’t stop people from pursuing the truth. He draws a firm line at incitement to violence, however: “If someone says that we should kill women, or black people, or trans people, then that is clearly against the law and immoral.”

Nationhood and citizenship in the era of cheap global transport

Given the low cost of global travel and technology that allows large diasporas to maintain close cultural ties to their ancestral homelands, I asked Simon whether he thinks our traditional definitions of nationhood and citizenship are outdated. Is this model of organizing societies really stable in the long term if you view it through a historical lens? I can’t help but think that we are making an error by handing out citizenships freely to people from all around the world with little shared ancestry, history, or culture.

“Multiculturalism is bound to fail,” he replied, “It has been tried many times and always fails.” He pointed to many comparable historical examples, such as Cyprus, Lebanon, and Yugoslavia. In all of these examples, the tribalism in our human nature eventually overrode any pretensions that it didn’t matter, and serious conflict ensued.

“A stable society requires common language, culture, religion, and values,” says Simon.

I shared my concerns about the potential for conflict in Sweden, my home country, when large immigrant groups with different backgrounds follow instructions from abroad. In 2022, we saw the “Ramadan riots” in Swedish towns in response to Rasmus Paludan’s Quran burning tour, which injured many police officers. There is also the radicalizing influence of foreign media and imams on the diaspora, and we’ve seen instances where lies have been spread that social services are “kidnapping” Muslim children.

Simon explains that this situation gives rise to a “fifth column” issue in Sweden, where individuals with allegiance to foreign entities — particularly among recent immigrants — influence the country’s political landscape. This might also create a very dangerous situation in critical moments. I told Simon that we are already in this situation, given the hybridization of gang criminality and Islamic extremism, where gang criminals have taken orders from the mullahs in Iran during Iran’s war with Israel and attacked targets in Sweden, for example.

We discussed the upcoming election and the potential impact of Islamic immigration in particular on political outcomes. This may even be the deciding force that tips the election in a left-wing direction. “It is really a terrifying situation,” says Simon. “It will turn bad.”

He explained that, when he lived in Sweden back in the days, it was relaxed and laid back. There was never any trouble, the most peaceful and lovely society.

How did we end up in this mess?

“The intelligentsia and academics come up with ideas like multiculturalism. It is not ordinary working people. This is not a grassroots movement,” Simon explained. Our elites live in their ivory towers — they are not impacted by their own bad policies. This insulation allows them to hold strange beliefs and ideologies that are never tested against reality.

I also brought up that I think feminization is a major contributor to our problems, citing the work of Erik Olsson and Catharina Grönqvist Olsson. I described a male equivalent to “white flight”: when an organization reaches a tipping point in the share of women, the culture shifts (an “HR-ification,” so to speak) in ways that make men uncomfortable, prompting them to leave. This allows feminized thinking to gradually dominate institutions. Women are often more pro-social and less capable of dealing firmly with transgressors. Simon agreed but added that part of the process is perhaps also that some men cannot stand being ordered around by women — “It feels unnatural to them,“ Simon explained.

Simon added that, although he personally prefers the company of women because they tend to be more empathetic and cooperative, “Men will argue to get to a position of power, and this is oftentimes how new ideas emerge. Women are seeking consensus by looking for similarities instead.” This dynamic causes progress to stall and issues not being dealt with when women hold positions of power.

Is a dog born in a stable a horse?

There is much discussion in Sweden about what it means to be Swedish. Some find it offensive — or even inaccurate — to say that someone born here isn’t truly Swedish if they lack ancestral ties to the land. What are Simon’s thoughts on national identity and belonging?

“Your cultural identity is primarily absorbed through osmosis from family rather than your surroundings,” he explained. In other words, it comes through the stories, culture, and language absorbed from one’s parents. This process is absent for those with foreign parents.

I also mentioned studies showing heritable traits influencing outcomes — not just cultural absorption but genetics as well. For example, differences persist among Euro-Americans with origins in different countries in the US, hundreds of years after immigration, in economic productivity, criminality, and cultural tendencies that mirror their countries of origin.

Assimilation, in some ways, is a myth; it is more like a cultural transplant, as economist Garett Jones has argued. Simon cautioned about the sensitivity of the topic due to historical associations with Holocaust-era racism: “This is tricky territory. It is really sensitive because of the war.” I explained that the reason why I often bring this up in my writing — despite the controversial nature — is that I believe there can be bad consequences down the line to not speaking the truth with regards to these issues as we’ve seen relatively successful groups (like Jews and whites) demonized in recent days. Simon agreed.

The issue with our democracy

I asked whether Simon believes our current form of democracy is struggling as a result of immigration and has turned into a form of clientelism that serves various groups with little historical connection to or contribution toward the host society. Is it fair or sustainable for people with no real ties to the country to influence elections and policy through their votes?

“Our democratic system has been corrupted by immigration. I see that our politicians are now behaving like ones from Africa and Asia,” Simon said. This means offering benefits to client groups in exchange for votes. Simon’s solution is to suspend democracy temporarily — with the intention of restoring it later. I explained my view that democracy’s key benefit is the ability to vote out a bad leader, and that I fear an authoritarian leader might suspend it indefinitely. Simon acknowledged the risk but countered that doing nothing carries an equal danger of continued decline.

Are we heading for civil unrest?

Some intellectuals warn that Western societies are heading toward civil war — or at least civil unrest — if we don’t change course. As a historian, does Simon see truth in that assessment?

He sees it quite easily. Ordinary people are not being listened to; violence becomes the only way to get noticed. As a Swede, I must add that I think the current Swedish government is much better at listening to people than is the case in comparable nations — but there is still a long way to go.

There are rising tensions between native and immigrant communities all across Europe, including violent incidents involving far-right groups. Potential solutions include deporting immigrants and redirecting welfare funds to their home countries, but the reversal of immigration should be done systematically and humanely.

But separatism would evoke memories of the Nazi regime, so he doesn’t see enthusiasm for it in the electorate. Perhaps things will become worse before such drastic measures are implemented.

The situation in Sweden and the UK

We discussed the challenges of integration versus multiculturalism in the UK and Sweden. The UK has largely shifted away from integration toward multiculturalism, while Sweden still emphasizes integration — though with uncertain results.

In the UK, there is acceptance of multiculturalism because the failings of integration have become too obvious. In Sweden, the belief in integration persists. As Simon observed, the American “melting pot” has become a “salad bowl” because it became clear that such diverse populations do not assimilate.

When I asked Simon about cultural differences between the UK and Sweden in terms of our abilities to deal with these issues, he simply said that “When I lived in Sweden, I felt like I was among my own people, which I never felt when I lived in Arab nations, for example. We are very similar people.”

I guess we are all in the same boat, after all.

More with Simon Webb

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